
Class X 4 '5? 
Book_l3^__ 



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THE TERRITORIAL ROLIOY. 



SPEECH OF ELI THAYER, OF MASS., 

IN REPLY TO 

HON. MR, CURTIS AND HON. MR. GOOOH. 



Delivered in the TJ. S. House of Representatives, May 11, 1860. 



Mr. Speaker : I have listened with great in- 
terest to the remarks of my colleague, and also 
to those of the gentleman from Iowa, [Mr. 
Curtis.] They have manifested suitable inge- 
nuity in the discussion of this question ; for, 
sir, it is the work of giants to prove to the peo- 
ple of this country that they have not a right 
to govern themselves, and that Congress has 
a right to govern them. That is a work that 
can be done only by giants. It is easy for or- 
dinary men, for common men, to show to the 
people of this country that they have the right 
to govern themselves, and that they are abun- 
dantly prepared to exercise that right. In the 
early history of this Government, we had the 
Providence Plantations, the Plymouth colony, 
and the New Haven eolouy, which drummed 
out a Governor Forced upon them by a non res- 
ident Power, and thereby secured to that State 
an indestructible possession — the proud history 
of the charter oak. Those men from the old 
country formed upon our soil model govern- 
ments, and they did it without ever having had 
the experience afforded by the exercise of self- 
government. 

But, sir, it is contended that we, who have 
always governed ourselves, when we go to a 
Territory of the United States are unable to 
tell our hands from our feet. It is contended 
that a man not only loses his rights, but loses 
his common sense, by going to a Territory. 
The gentleman from Iowa 

Mr, CURTIS. Mr. Speaker 

Mr. THAYER. I will allow no interruption. 
The gentleman from Iowa refused to let me ask 
him a question. I remember that. 

Mr. CURTIS. I certainly did not, or at least 
I did not intend it. 

Mr. THAYER. I shall not be interrupted. I 
have the floor. 

Mr, CURTIS, I did not hear the gentleman, 
if he asked me any question. 

Mr. THAYER. I was not astonished at the 
surprise which my colleague manifested, that I 
hid taken the lead in this business of killing 
off these Territorial organizations which go 
up<lh the assumption that the people of a Ter- 
ritory are infants. Therefore I could under- 
stand the grief which he and the gentleman 
from Iowa must have felt when they saw that 
this leadiug and this voting was successful in 
the accomplishment of that result. Rachel 



mourned for her first-born, and would not be 
comforted. This day's slaughter of the inno- 
cents is no doubt an appropriate cause and 
occasion of grief. 

Sir, grief may have a salutary influence upon 
men. The efforts of ingenuity and of invention 
may quicken their intellects. I am glad to see 
gentlemen striving for arguments that do not 
exist, and can never be found, showing why 
Congress should make an organic law for the 
people of the Territories, who are a thousand 
times better able than Congress to understand 
their wishes and necessities. There was need, 
sir, in this work, of quick and ready invention, 
of nervous struggling for expedients. We have 
witnessed all that thi^ day — 

" AH the sotil ia rapt suspension ; * 

All the quivering, palpitating 
Chords of life in utmost tension 
With the fervor of invention, ' 

With t^ rapture of creating." / 

I said, grief itself may be salutary ; and when 
these gentlemen see that they are in the minor- 
ity, and that we who oppose their favorite meas- 
ures are a majority in this House, I sympathize 
with them. 1 know something about the effect 
of defeat ; and I say it, for their consolation, 
that I think it may be good. Sir, I have known 
something of the feeling of men who have ex- 
perienced defeat; this feeling of distrust of the 
power of Providence to carry forward a good 
cause, this loss of faith in men, this ruinous 
and apparently crushing despair, may some- 
times work great good. The pearl is only the 
crystallized tear of the oyster. 

Mr. GOOCH rose. 

Mr. TH\Y'ER, I will not be interrupted. 

Mr, GOOCH. I say to my colleague, that I 
allowed him to interrupt me frequently durino- 
my remarks on the polygamy bill, a few days 
ago ; and yet he is not willing to give me the 
same privilege, 

Mr. THAYER. If my colleague wishes to 
interrupt me, I will allow him to do anything 
he chooses. [Laughter,] 

Mr, GOOCH, I thought my colleague would 
not be as unjust as he intimated, I must ex- 
press some surprise at the reference my col- 
league has made. If he had looked up his 
quotations to express surprise, instead of grief, 
it would have been more to the purpose. I 
expressed no grief. I simply expressed sur- 
prise. 



li,*- 



2 



Mr. THAYER. I have not looked up any 
quotations. I happen generally to know what 
ia appropriate, without looking them up. 
[Laughter.] 

Now, Mr. Speaker, let me say further to my 
colleague, whose grief and surprise I trust 
may be for his spiritual and eternal good, that 
1 will give him another quotation to the same 

point : • - - 

" Such a fate as this was Dante's — "" _ 

By defeat aud cxilo maddened ; 
Tluis were Miltou and CVrvantcs, - .^ 

Nature's priests, and Corybanles, 

By afflidion touched and saddened." 

And again : 

'• Only those are crowned and sainted, 
Who with grief have been acquainted." 

Now, sir, let us look for a moment at the ar- 
guments which have been sought after to show 
that Congress should organize Territorial Gov- 
ernments. I will now leave the region of the 
sensibilities, and visit, for a time, the domain 
of the intellect — a movement from what is 
sublime in feeling in my opponents to what is 
ridiculous in reason. I understand, Mr. Speak- 
er, that those arguments have all been made on 
a proposition to organize a Territory which has 
ino white men in it. There is not a member of 
\he Committee on Territories who has spoken, 
rtr who will rise and say that there are three 
h'undred white men in the Territory of Chip- 
pewa. 

Mr. GROW. Oh, yes, -there are. 
•Mr. ALDRICH. If the gentleman will go 
there, he will find a good many more than 
three hundred white men there. The gentle- 
man lives so far off, it is not Jo be wondered at 
that he should make such a statement. 

Mr. TiJAYER. I had it from the contesting 
Delegate from Nebraska. 

Mr. CLARK, of Missouri. I desire to ask the 
chairman of the Committee on Territories if 
there has been any petition signed by any man 
within the limits of Chippewa Territory, in fa- 
vor of an organization of that Territory ; and 
•what evidence they have that there are even 
one hundred and eighty white men within its 
limits ? 

Mr. SMITH, of Virginia. I do not believe 
there is one white man there. 

Mr. GROW. 1 should like to ask the gentle- 
man from Missouri what petitions there were 
from Kansas and Nebraska at the time those 
Territories were organized ? 

Mr. HOUSTON. Oh, that is no argument. 
One wrong does not justify another. 

Mr. THAYER. Now, let me make one re- 
mark to the gentleman from Iowa, who appealed 
to this House to atford protection to these in- 
fants in the Territories 

Mr. CURTIS. 1 hope the gentleman will al- 
low me to correct his statement. 

Mr. THAYER. The gentleman did not allow 
me. 

Mr. CURTIS. I certainly did not refuse to 
allow the gentleman to interrupt me, to correct 
anything I might have said. If the gentleman 
appealed to me, and I did not yield to him, it 
•was because I did not hear him, and not from 
any want of courtesy. Now;, sir, I protest Jhat 



I never spoke of the people of the Terrffories 
as infanta. I spoke of them as men ; and if I 
used the word " infant" in that connection, it 
was to characterize the Territories as infant 
empires. 

Mr. THAYER. I was not talking of the gen- 
tleman's orthography or etymology. I was 
talking about his speech. 

Mr. CURTIS. I used no expression of the 
kind. 

Mr. THAYER. I was not quoting the gen- 
tleman in words; I was talking about his argu- 
ment, which was to show that the people of the 
Territories were wholly unable to take care of 
themselves, and that they must be afforded 
protection by the General Government. What 
do they want with our protection ? And if they 
do want it, what protection would they get ex- 
cept a government of broken-down politicians, 
which the President of the United States would 
send them ? They have King Log now ; they 
would have King Stork then. Is a Governor a 
ten-horse power to protect the people ? So far 
from that, sir, he is as much inferior to the 
hardy pioneer, in strength and character, as 
Lombardy poplar is to live oak. What is there 
in such a Governor? What is there in such a 
secretary? What is there in such marshals? 
What is there in a whole force of Territorial 
officers such as would be sent there to protect 
the people ? Depend upon it, if they are pro- 
tected at all, they will protect themselves ; no- 
body else will protect them ; and besides that, 
they must protect all these Government offi- 
cials, if we send them. 1 ask, who are the men 
you would send there? Men whom the people 
have defeated at home. These are the men 
usually sent to govern the Territories ; these 
are the governmental officials, under whatever 
party jurisdiction appointed; and they have 
usually been worse to the people of the Terri- 
tories than the frogs and lice to the people of 
Egypt. [Laughter.] 

But, sir, to carry the illustration further: 
Here the people are the sovereigns ; these nui- 
sances go up into the chambers of the kings. 
Why do they go? To fill their own pockets 
with the gold of the General Government; to 
trade with the Indians ; to speculate in town 
lots ; and often, one of the methods by which 
they accomplish their ends is by stirring up 
Indian wars. I have appealed to our history 
to show thwt the people can govern themselves, 
and I might as well go on a little further in the 
same direction. It does happen that the peo- 
ple of the State of Oregon were, during the 
first ten years of their history, without a Terri- 
torial Government. Their first Governor, Gen. 
Lane, has said that the people of Oregon had not 
since been under so good laws, so well enforced, 
' as they made for themselves, before/the time 
when their Government received the sanction 
of Congress. They had done everything «bat 
pertained to good government. Still, there are 
men who will stand up here and say, that with- 
out a Territorial organization by Congress, the 
people would be ruined. 

Now, sir, I tell you what is the object of these 
Territorial organizations. It is to make the 



XCHANQI 



people believe that nothing on this continent 
can be done without Congress. It is an attempt 
to deify the politician at the expense of the 
people ; that is the whole of it. Sir, do you 
think that this House of Representatives, that 
this Senate, that this President, is the motive 
power of this Government? If you do, let me 
assure you you know but little about it. The mo- 
tive power of this Government is the people — the 
people at home, who attend to their own busi- 
ness and mind their own matters — and the pol- 
iticians here, who pretend that they themselves 
are the motive power, are insignificant in com- 
parison with the fly on the axle-tree, who claimed 
that he made the coach move. [Laughter.] That 
is the fact. Now, sir, I am tired of these as- 
sumptions. I cannot endure them. I contend 
that it is better to leave these men alone, with- 
out our supervision, until their faults or weak- 
nesses shall show that our intervention alone 
can be their salvation. 

I think, now, Mr. Speaker, that I have vindi- 
cated the power of the people to govern them- 
selves. I have shown it as it appears in our 
history. These people of Dakota are as well 
off to-day as they would be if they had our 
Territorial officials over them. They have now 
no Indian wars. The Yanctons and the Sioux 
are all quiet. But organize the Territory, and 
send out your executive officials ; and then, sir, 
these speculators will greatly desire an influx 
of Government gold. There is no method so 
sure and so convenient to produce that result, 
as to stir up an Indian war. It will be done, 
sir, to raise the pi-ice of town lots. The Yanc- 
tons and Sioux will come down on the white 
settlements, and we shall soon hear of the ter- 
rible inroads of the savages. Then, sir, a 
heart-rending appeal for protection. Then, sir, 
a regiment, of soldiers and $1,000,000. Then, 
sir, damages and pensions and war claims to 
the end of time. They are better off to-day, 
than they can be with these Government spec- 
ulators turned loose upon them. 

Mr. GOOCH. I wish to ask my colleague 
whether he recognises the right of Congress to 
interfere, if the people of a Territory" should 
Irame institutions which, in its opinion, were 
improper, and not in accordance with the 
theory and spirit of this Government? 

Mr. THAYER. Our fathers had a general 
rule, which they applied very frequently when 
questions were asked about what they would do 
in certain contingencies; and that rule was, that 
» they would answer any such questions when 
they should arise in practice. That is a very 
good rule for me to act upon in this case. 

Mr. GOOCH. Does not my colleague con- 
sider that such a question may have arisen in 
the case of Utah, and perhaps in the case of 
New Mexico ? 

Mr. THAYER. No case has yet arisen in 
practice. No evil has yet been consummated 
in the Territories, which the people there, by 
their own local laws, are not abundantly able to 
remove. 

Now, sir, I do not propose to have anything 
to say concerning the negro in the bills which 
1 shall offer to the House. I am perfectly will- 



ing that, for a time under this Government, the * 
negro, as well as the sovereignty of Congress, 
shall be held in abeyance. Perhaps that is the 
reason why some gentlemen are surprised, and 
why they grieve. It may be that, if my col- 
league were not surprised at me, I should be 
very much surprised at myself. You will re- 
member, in the beginning of this session of 
Congress, that assurances were given by many 
Republicans here, that this question of slavery 
should not be introduced by them during the 
present Congress. I, sir, was one of the Re- 
publicans who repeatedly gave that assurance 
to men whose votes were doubtful; and had it 
not been for such assurance, you, today, Mr. 
Speaker, would not be occupying the position 
of presiding officer of this House. Sir, such 
an assurance was publicly given upon this floor 
by the Republican candidate for Speaker, [Mr. 
Sherman,] and that assurance was quoted by 
the gentleman from Maryland, [Mr. Davis,] in 
his defence against the resolutionsof the Mary- 
land Legislature, that the Republicans would 
not introduce the question of slavery into this 
House. I have honestly observed ray promise 
in reference to the assurance which I gave men 
whose votes were doubtful on the question of 
the Speakership. 

Mr. Speaker, I do not propose, in the organ- 
ization of these Territories, to agitate the coun- 
try with that' question. These is no manner of 
need of it. I have said before that the inter- 
ests of freedom do not demand it. I say now, 
that the interests of slavery do not demand it. 
What do the fanatics in both sections of this 
country want? They know that the whole 
country is.tired of the question. If the whole 
country could respond to-day as one man, they 
woirid say so. Have we nothing else to look 
after in this country but the slavery question ? 
Is there nothing here but " Northern aggres- 
sion " and " Southern aggression ? " Are all 
the glorious achievements in our history for- 
gotten ? Are all the momentous interests of 
our present condition of no importance ? But, 
sir, these fanatics, both in the North and in the 
South, know nothing, see nothing, care for 
nothing, but the negro question. 

Above us is the broad expanse of heaven, 
filled with glowing constellations : 
" In reason's ear they all rejeice, 
And utter forth a glorious voice." 

There is " Arcturus with his sons," and Orion 
with the Pleiades ; but we have a set of one- 
idea men in the North, who can see nothing in 
the whole canopy, save the " Twins ; " and 
another set of cognate fanatics in the South, 
who can see nothing but the " Bear circling 
the Pole." Poor men ! They sit up nights — 
the one class to see that the "Bear" does not 
devour the " Twins," and the other class to see 
that the " Twins " do not set some trap for the 
" Bear ! " A fine help are these haggard night- 
watchers to the great Eternal ! Their " eternal 
vigilance," no doubt, prevents a collision of the 
planets. How thankful we should be that such 
self-sacrificing heroes still live. We all know 
well enough what might happen, if even one 
little world should be jostled out of place. 



' " Lctbnt cmt planet from its orb be hurled , 

Planets and suns rush lawless through the world." 

There was one man, Newton, who compre- 
hended all these constellations and the laws 
which govern them. He weijjhed worlds. He 
gave to mortals the grandest law of the physi- 
cal universe. He could see the whole ethereal 
expanse, and contemplate it, and scrutinize its 
movements, and almost fathom its mysteries. 
But Pope says of that Titanic intellectual 
prodigy: 

" Superior beings, when of late they s.aw 
A mortal man unfold all nature's law, 
Admired such wisdom \\\ the human shape, 
And showed a Newton as we show an ape." 

If, sir, " superior beings " saw a Newton as 
an ape, by what multiplication of microscopic 
power could they see at all a little dwarfed 
politician, who himself can see but one con- 
stellation, or at most two, in the whole handi- 
work of Jehovah, and these two the " Bear" and 
the " Twins ? " [.Great laughter.] 

Let me say to the gentlemen from the South 
who are sensitive on this question of slavery, 
that a sublimer faith would become great men. 
Those men especially who say that slavery 
is of Divine origin. Why, Mr. Speaker, who is 
the author of Divine institutions? " It is He 
who sitteth upon the circuit of the heavens, and 
before Him all the inhabitants of the earth are 
as grasshoppers." If, then, he has established 
certain relations between grasshoppers of one 
color and grasshoppers of another color, be as- 
sured those relations will stand any and all 
te.sts. Who can overthrow them? Can the 
North? [Great laughter.] Is my colleague 
going to do it? I think not; for these things 
which have the superintendence ami approval 
of Almighty God are above even these giants 
who contend against the right of the people to 
govern themselves. The Titans even could 
not dethrone Jupitey. 

The appeal is made to us from every reason 
of philanthropy, from every sentiment of pity, 
that those " poor people " in the Territories 
may not be allowed to govern themselves, for 
the reason that they cannot pay their own ex- 
penses. Well, sir, if they cannot do it, is it not 
as easy for us to appropriate money to govern 
the land districts, or to aid them in governing 
themselves, as it is to appropriate money to 
pay the officials which the Executive may send 
out? What man can doubt that ? If they are 
in such a strait as to want assistance in their 
government, who is here so base as to refuse to 
give it. There is no party here, there has been 
no party in this country, but what would listen 
to the appeals of these people, coming with 
this plea of poverty that they were unable to 
meet the legitimate expenses of their Govern- 
ment ; they would have an appropriation ; and 
one-half ot' the ordinary appropriation would be 
better for them, paid to their own citizens, 
whom they would elect to these offices, than the 
whole appropriation paid to Federal officials, 
who go out to the Territories only for a tempo- 
rary residence, and who return with the profits 
of their proconsulship to settle in Fifth avenue, 
o^ in some of the Eastern cities. Under this 
mode of allowing the people to govern them- 



selves, they will select their own fellow-citizens, 
residents in the same Territory : and these of- 
ficers will receive their salaries, not to be trans- 
ported to Eastern cities to be spent in luxury ; 
but, sir, to be used in building up the young 
Territories and the future States which shall 
be made within her limits. 

Mr. Speaker, another objection of my col- 
league is, that there can be no law except mob 
law among these people in the Territories. I 
have shown that in our earliest colonies, with- 
out the advantage of former experience in self- 
government, the people have made models of 
government for themselves. I have shown 
that the people of Oregon have made model 
institutions without the advice or sanction of 
Congress. My colleague says that nothing but 
mob law can exist, except where this omnis- 
cient Legislature shall show the world some 
nobler achievements. Mob law, made by in- 
fants, and I suppose carried out by infants 1 
No, sir ; mob law made by sensible men, your 
equals and mine, from your State and from 
mine; every one of them abundantly able to 
draw up a bill of rights or a Constitution. And 
these are the men who know nothing but mob 
law, and this Congress should exercise its all- 
wise influence to restrain them from self-de- 
struction, from annihilation 1 Is it possible, 
sir, that, in this age of the world, there is any 
man so big a fool as to suppose that Anglo- 
Saxons have not in themselves the elements of 
self-preservation? If there is, sir, he ought to 
be schooled a while longer by his mother and by 
his nurse. I contend, sir, that Anglo-Saxons, 
wherever you find them, have the elements of 
self-government and the elements of self-pres- 
ervation. Put them down where you please, 
in small numbers or in great numbers, fa- 
miliar friends or strangers to each other, and 
they will institute a perfect code of laws, and 
they will entbrce them. Personal rights, rights 
of property, all rights, will be protected under 
those laws. 

Now, sir, this is a scheme to deify politicians, 
and that is why it is fought for. What will the 
politicians do, these men ask, when it is seen 
all over the country that the people can do 
without them, and without their supervision 
and parental care in Congress? " Othello's 
occupation" will be gone, and especially the 
occupation of such Othellos as have their all 
invested in W'ilmot Provisos or Congressional 
intervention in some shape. What can they do 
when the people shall have said, as they will say,* 
that no provisos are necessary, and no Congres- 
sional intervention consistent with the prin- 
ciples and policy of this Government. I take 
the stand that any such proviso or any such in- 
tervention is in direct antagonism to the Decla- 
ration of Independence, which says that "all 
Governments derive their just powers from the 
consent of the governed." Is that the kind of 
government which this Congress of the United 
States, without one word of authority from the 
people, imposes — to tell them how they shall 
act and what they shall do in the Territories ? 
Do you claim, Mr. Speaker, that you have a 
right to say that a mau in Washington Terri- 



tory, -whose wife is dead, shall not have the 
right to marry his former wife's sister ? Do 
you pretend to say at what time they shall dig 
clams in Washington Territory? [Laushter.J 
Who pretends to say that it is the business of 
Congress to go into all these minutiae ; to direct 
every movement, control every wish, shape 
every expression of the will of the people of the 
Territories of the United States? Whoever 
pretends to say so, is not entitled to have much 
influence among American citizens. 
- Mr. GOOCH. I wish merely to say to my 
colleague, that it seems to me he is fighting a 
proposition which nobody ever did assume. 
Nobody has assumed such a proposition here 
to-day, as that Congress could do anything of 
that kind •- but merely that we should give a 
helping hand to the people, in organizing their 
local government, which may do these things. 

Mr. THAYER. I perfectly well understand 
all that. It is to give a helping hand to the 
politicians, not to the people ; that is what my 
colleague wants. He is afraid I will lose my 
place in this House for not lending a helping 
hand. I do not fear any such thing, so long 
as I adhere to what I can defend by good logic. 
I do not fear to go before the people of any part 
of the country with this as my thesis: that the 
people are supreme in this Government, and 
that they have the right to govern themselves. 

Mr. GOOCH. I desire to ask my colleague 
whether he means to say that I have ever inti- 
mated anv such thing as he suggests? 

Mr. THAYER. What? 

Mr. GOOCH. That I was afraid you would 
lose your place here on account of your position 
on this or any other question. 

Mr. THAYER. I supposed that, on account 
of your abundant sympathy, that was the case. 

Mr. GOOCH. When the gentleman cannot 
find something that exists to fight, he fights 
something that does not exist. 

Mr. THAYER. If the gentleman wishes me 
to come directly to the point, I will do so. He 
says Congress has the power to govern the peo- 
ple ; and he complains because 1 said that Con- 
gress might exercise that power by telling the 
people ofa country when they were to dig clams, 
and when not ; and might exercise it by saying 
whether a man might marry his former wife's 
sister or not. Now, I ask my colleague if he 
denies that Congress has the power to say both 
these, things? 

Mr. GOOCH. What I say in regard to the 
matter is this : that it is the duty of Congress 
merely to assist these people in organizing a 
Territorial Government; not to dictate to them 
their measures of legislation, only so far as that 
they shall not legislate in such a way as would 
be against the best interests of the people of the 
Territory and the whole country. 

What I mean to say, still further, is, that if a 
Territorial Legislature shall pass any law which, 
in the judgment of Congress, shall be contrary 
to the policy or theory of our Government, or 
which in the end would place this Territory in 
such a condition that it would not be a proper 
subject to be received into the Union on an 
equality with the other States, then it is the 



duty of Congress to interfere and prohibit or 
repeal such law 

Mr. THxiYER. I think my colleague has 
gone on far enough. 

Mr. GOOCH. Then I will sit down. 

Mr. THAYER. That is right. I would like 
to know what kind of philosophy it is that my 
colleague's views are based upon. Is it the 
philosophy of persecution and proscription, or 
is it the philosophy of Christianity ? Does he 
suppose, when the people of a Territory are de- 
termined to act in a certain way, and to exer- 
cise certain rights, that by legislating here to 
the contrary he can prevent their acting in 
that (!ertain way, and exercising those certain 
rights? Is he of the opinion that he is going 
to convert these men to what he considers right, 
by force ? Is that his idea ? Does he expect 
that if they love slavery and hate freedom, he is 
going to make them good Christians and good 
freedom-men by legislating that they never shall 
have slaves ? Would he propose, in respect to 
Christianizing Hindostan, that the best method 
for the missionary societies would be to send 
over and steal their idols ? Would he make 
them Christians any sooner by legislating in 
Massachusetts, or here in the Federal Govern- 
ment, against idol worship in Hindostan? No, 
sir ; that is entirely a wrong philosophy. You 
cannot legislate religion, or temperance, or 
Christianity, or heaven, into any people under 
the sun. No, sir ; this must be accomplished 
by other means. Converts are not made, es- 
pecially in this country, by force. Bat, sir, it 
seems to be the cherished opinion of some, 
that there is no other way of making converts 
to anything good, except by legislation. Now, 
I have a philosophy about government, and 
the duties of government, which cannot by any 
possibility accord with the views expressed by 
my colleague. The propositions that I make, 
as comprehending that whole philosophy, are 
very simple, and are only two in number. These 
are, first, that the first duty of the Government 
is to let the people alone ; and, second, that its 
second duty is to prevent my colleague, or any- 
body else, from interfering with them. [Laugh- 
ter.] 

Now, sir, if they are unable to work oi\t 
their own salvation, it is putting very great 
burdens, Mr. Speaker, on you and me, to work 
out the salvation of all the people of this coun- 
try. You and I might be the only men who 
understand in what line and in what direction 
this great salvation lies. How shall we accom- 
plish it with the perverse wills of the whole na- 
tion against us ? 

Now, I will state to you what is the radical 
and distinctive difference between parties in 
this country ; and there can be traced to this 
radical distinction every measure which occa- 
sions any conflict in this House or in the coun- 
try. That radical distinction is this : faith in 
the people, and no faith in the people. It so 
happens, and it wisely happens, that no party 
will ever control, or has ever controlled, this 
Government, but what either exercises this faith 
in the people, or makes the people believe that 
it exercises it. [Laughter.] 



Now, sir, I challenge any man to controvert 
that maxim. It has not been done here, and it 
cannot be done here. I will meet, now, or at 
any time, any man on these radical propositions 
of government which I now enunciate. If my 
colleague wishes now to make any explanation 
of his views, I will listen to him. [Laughter.] 

Mr. GOOCH. I have as much belief in the 
ability of the people to govern themselves as 
my colleague or any other man has; but, sir, 
when I look to our Territories, I say that those 
Territories belong to the people of the whole 
country ; that in those Territories every indi- 
vidual in the country has an interest; and I 
believe that no ten men, or twenty men, oV one 
hundred men, from the United States, or from 
any foreign country, have a right to go there 
and build up precisely such institutions as they 
please ; to organize, it' they choose, a monarch- 
ical form of government, and build up institu- 
tions which shall make the States to be formed 
out of those Territories unlit ever to be taken 
into the Union. 

Mr. THAYER. Now I understand all that 
my colleague is going to say, [Laughter.] 

Mr. GOOCH. Then my colleague does not 
want my views. He has had enough of them. 

Mr. THAYER. I understand all that he is 
going to say. His propositions are these : 
first, that every man in this country has an 
equal right to the territory of the United States, 
and therefore his inference is this : that every 
man in this country has a right to impress his 
own peculiar views upon the people who' shall 
occupy that Territory. 

Mr. GOOCH. No; my colleague mistakes 
my theory. My theory is, that the people, as 
a whole, own the Territories ; that the views of 
the ditl'erent individuals shall be placed to 
gether ; and, that the sum of all the opinions 
of all the people shall prevail in the Territories. 

Mr. THAYER. Well, now, that would work 
very great hardship in case there should be 
nine hundred and ninety-nine men of one view, 
and one thousand men of the other. The nine 
hundred and ninety-nine, who, according to 
his assertion, have an equal right in the Ter- 
ritories, would, by the action of one man, have 
no rights whatever. 

Mr. GOOCH. The theory of our Govern- 
ment is, that the majority shall govern. Does 
my colleague deny that? 

Mr. THAYER. And all this, Mr. Speaker, 
after the people in the Territories have bought 
their laud and paid for it ! After that, these 
men have a right to impress them with their 
peculiar views on politics, religion, on moral 
and mental philosophy, on spiritualism, and 
what not. There is no end to what we might 
make topics of legislation. Well, I am not for 
making these things topics of legislation my- 
self; and if I had uiy way about it, a poet 
never would write a platform for the Repub- 
lican party. [Laughter.] 1 do not like meta- 
phors in platforms. I want them prose ; or, if 
they must be poetry, I would like to have them 
very good poetry. 

Now, from what source can this power be 
derived, that enables mea who have sold these 



lands to people who are their equals in every re- 
spect—who are citizens of the United States— 
where is the power derived from, that gives to 
men in Maine, and Massachusetts, and Iowa, 
the right to say what institutions the pioneers 
shall have ? But I am told, with grave solem- 
nity, by my colleague, that this is the ancient 
policy of this Government. It is not so ancfent 
as Satan. [Laughter.] It is not so old as 
Sin, the daughter of Satan. Its age is no rea- 
son why it should be forever sustained. It is 
old enough to die. • 

Mr. GOOCH. I desire to ask my colleague 
whether he intends to place the framers of our 
(jovernraent, and the men who engrafted this 
policy on the Territories, in the same category 
with the distinguished individual to whom he 
has referred, and to say that their work is oa 
a par with what he terms sin? [Laughter.] 

Mr. THAYER. No, sir, neither them nor 
my colleague. I have no idea of doing such 
a thing. But I do say of the men who framed 
this Government, that they might not have 
been perfect, even in human wisdom ; and I 
do say, contrary perhaps to the opinion of 
manv, that the present generation is not less 
wise than the past. It may sound strangely, 
but any man who denies it denies faith in God 
and human nature. No, sir ; I contend that 
we are degenerate men, unless we can inaugu- 
rate a better policy than that which has been 
inaugurated one or two centuries ago. Have 
we not improved on the law of primogeniture ? 
Have we not improved upon the feudal sys- 
tem ? But this idea, that Congress have the 
right to govern the Territories because they 
have sold the lands to the people who live 
there, is a part of that system. 

No, sir ; I tell you that this Territorial policy 
has been, from the outset, progressing all the 
while in favor of popular rights. The first 
stage in our Territorial policy was, that the 
President should send out the executive power, 
the legislative power, and the judicial power, 
for every Territory. That was the first policy. 
The second policy was, that the President 
should send out the executive power, the judi- 
cial power, and a part of the legislative power — 
the Council — while the people of the Territory 
might elect the lower branch of the Legisla- 
ture. The third step of our Territor'al policy 
was this : that the President should send out 
the executive and judicial powers, while the 
people in the Territory should elect the whole 
legislative power. And, sir, the fourth step ,ia 
our policy was — and that was the Kansas-Ne- 
braska bill — that Congress should not have in- 
tervention for the revision of the laws which 
the people in a Territory should make, although 
by that act the sovereignty of the people in the 
Territory was held in abeyance during their 
Territorial condition, subject to the sover- 
eignty of the President. 

Now, sir, the step which I propose, which is 
the fifth step in our Territorial policy, is this : 
that tjjie sovereignty of the people shall be 
active, and not held in abeyance, while the 
sovereignty of the President and the sover- 
eignty of Congress shall be held in abeyance. 



This sir is the fifth aud last step in our Terri- 1 suitable men to govern these Territories. I 
' ' suppose they have no suitable men there I I 



torial policy. I 

" Time's noblest offspring is her last." 
This policy, sir, is the Ultima Thule of pop- 
ular sovereignty— the pillars of Hercules, sir, 
on which 1 now write, in letters so that the 
world may read, '• The ne pi-us ultra of 
Anglo-Saxon government." 

But, sir, I will not censure my colleague tor 
entertaining any fears for the safety of free in- 
stitutions, which he may choose to cherish. 1 
can understand how he and other men— not, 
perhaps, of the most bold and defiant disposi- 
tion—may claim that there is danger of sla- 
very's grasping and destroying all our North- 
ern rights. I have heard of an old man who 
had read what Herschel had said aboutthe 
spots on the sun— that they Avere increasing; 
and, sir, he looked at the sun, to see whether 
the spots continued to increase ; and he kept 
looking, till he could see nothing but one black 
spot ; and then he died of grief, thinking the 
sun had gone out, when he had only gone out 
himself. [Great laugnter.] These timid men 
in the Northern States, who believe that sla- 
very is going to overspread the continent, and 
swallow up Canada and Massachusetts, get 
blinded by the dazzling light of all our free 
institutions and the glory of our nation's prog- 
ress and history, and they can see nothing but 
a black spot that covers the whole, and there- 
fore they fill the whole earth with their mourn- 
ing. [Laughter.] Now, I am not of that class 
of men. Ttell you, sir, that, reading the his- 
tory of this country, I can in no way convince 
myself that, by all these providential triumphs 
over British aggressions, by all these provi- 
dences in our behalf during our whole history, 
God has preserved and cherished this nation, 
just for the purpose of allowing it to be sub 
merged and destroyed by disunion, or slavery, 
or by any other calamity whatever. 

Now, sir, I have faith in the people of every 
section of the coun^^ry. I do not believe that 
the problem which belongs exclusively to the 
people of Texas, or exclusively to the people of 
Louisiana, can, by any possibility, be worked 
out to a satisfactory aud norrect result by the 
people of Massachusetts or the people of Maine. 
And as to the question of slavery in these States, 
I believe that the Northern people have no 
more business with it than we have with the 
laws of primogeniture in England, or than we 
have with the institutions of China, Hungary, 
or Turkey. Not one whit more. We are a 
Congress of nations to all intents and purposes ; 
we have no business each with the sovereignty 
of another, nor the sovereignty of the whole 
with the individual rights of any one. There 
can, then, be no quarrel between the North 
and the South concerning slavery in the States. 
We can only have that apple of discord in our 
Territorial Governments. I have, therefore, 
said not one word about it in the land district 
system which I have presented to the House 
and to the co.untry. I have observed my prom- 
ise, in them, not to bring the agitation of the 
slavery question into the House. That was my 
promise, and I will observe it. 

But my colleague says we must send out 



suppose no man in one of these unorganized 
Territories ever heard of such a place as the 
State of Massachusetts, or that my colleague 
was a Representative of that State ! and what 
do they know, if they do not know that / 
[Laughter.] Suitable men ! Men who cannot 
get a living at home ; men who have not popu- 
larity enough to be re-elected in their own dis- 
tricts. Suitable men I Who are the men who 
are there? They are men who have travelled 
across the mountains ; who have hunted wild 
beasts; who have fought the Indians; who un- 
derstand human nature better than any man 
can possibly do who is a member of this House, 
from the experience of a quiet life. These are 
the men whom some little puckered-up lawyer 
in Maine or Massachusetts, with his feet upon 
the window-sill, calls " infants," while he prates 
about " w(r parental care." [Great laughter.] 
Now, sir, I have no kind of patience with 
this kiud of argument, which goes before the 
country assailing the character of the men of 
the Territories. But if this were all, I might 
submit to it ; but, adding insult to injury, it as- 
sails their common sense ; it assails tbeir man- 
hood, calls them '' interlopers, runaways, and 
outlaws," and in every way wholly unfit for 
civilization and self-government. What on 
earth did God make such men for? Now, sir, 
I will yield to my colleague, if he wishes. 
[Laughter.] 

Mr. GOOCH, My colleague has been in- 
dulging in his usual style of fighting windmills. 
Mr. THAYER. I was fighting my colleague, 
Mr. Speaker. 

Mr. GOOCH. My colleague has not stated 
any argument or remark of mine. What I 
said was, not that these men were inferiors ; 
I said they were men just as capable of gov- 
erning themselves as the people of any other 
j^ortion of the country. But I said that, at the 
outset of a Territorial organization, they had 
little or no knowledge of each other ; that they 
were too few and scattered to enable them to 
select proper officers from among themselves ; 
and that, for the purpose of starting a Govern- 
ment, they should have the aid of the General 
GoverLiraent, and that their first executives 
should be selected by the General Government, 
instead of being selected by those men, whom I 
admitted might be the equals of my colleague 
and myself. I wish my colleague would reply 
to what I did say, instead of replying to his 
own fancies, to his own windmills, which he 
sets up for himself. 

Mr. THAYER. The House shall judge 
whether I am dealing fairly with my colleague. 
There shall be no mistake this time. I under- 
stand him this time to make two statements : 
one is, that the people are too few and scattered 
in the Territories for them td establish a Gov- 
ernment for themselves. Is that correct ? [Mr. 
GoocH nodded assent.] The other is, that they 
are strangers. Is that right ? [Mr. GoocH again 
nodded assent.] 

Now, sir, with the leave of the House, I 
shall answer both these propositions. The 
first, that the people are too few in numbers : 



8 



let me ask my colleague if there is more dan- 
ger of the overthrow of good poverument in the 
town of Paxton, whicli is one of the smallest 
in my county, or in the town of Hull, one of 
the towns near Cape Cod, which I believe has 
about seventv-five people, than there is in the 
city of New York, or in the' city of Baltimore? 
Did my colleague ever hear of a riot or a re- 
bellion in the patriotic town of Hull ? Has ho 
not often heard of riots jn New York and Bal- 
timore? I put it to this House, whether the 
fewness in number of the people of a Territory 
is a strong reason why the Government of the 
United States should interfere and see that 
they should not blot themselves out? Why, 
every man knows that our republican institu- 
tions are in the most danger where the popu- 
lation is the most dense. Has my colleague 
anything to say to that? 

Mr. GOOCH. My idea is, that there is more 
danger of institutions formed in the organiza- 
tion of a Government where there are few men 
who participate in that organization, than where 
it is participated in by many. And again, 
every one knows that the people who go to an 
unorganized Territory go from different coun- 
tries, and many of them come from" foreign 
countries; and I say that there is more danger 
that institutions will be established there not in 
accordance with the theory of our Government, 
than where there is a larger collection of people. 

Mr. THAYER. I feel the whole force of that 
argument. My colleague has shown that if 
there was only one man in a Territory, there 
would be very great danger of a mob there, 
and an overthrow of republican institutions. 
[Laughter.] Has the gentleman ever read the 
history of France ? Has he ever heard of bar- 
ricades in the streets of Paris? Has he ever 
read Roman history ; and does he not know 
that all dangers to government occur where 
the people are the most dense, where they ar^ 
packed, where they exist in crowds? My 
colleague certainly knows all that ; I will not 
take the position of denying that he knows all 
that. How, then, can he, with a knowledge of 
the history of this country and of all countries, 
claim that there is the greatest danger to re- 
publican institutions or to good government 
where there are the fewest people ? The 
fact — and every man knows it--is, that where 
there are few people, there never was, and there 
never can be, any great danger. 

My colleague's other proposition is, that the 
people are strangers to each other. Does my 
colleague suppose these Yankees are like the 
Frenchman, who would not save a drowning 
man because he had not been introduced to 
him ? [Laughter.] Does my colleague sup- 
pose the Yankees have not the power of get- 
ting acquainted? If they had no social quali- 
ties whatever, they would see if something 
could not bo m*de out of an acquaintance. 
[Great laughter.] Does my colleague deny 
that? [Continued laughter.] 

Mr. GOOCH. I do not deny that, if they 
will only let my colleague get up an organized 
scheme of emigration, and put the Yankees 
there, for he would select the right kind. 

Mr. THAYER. I will do my whole duty in 



that regard. [Laughter.] Now, Mr. Speaker, 
what is there in this humbug of Congressional 
intervention that commends itself to the people 
of tliis country ? Nothing. Neither you, sir 
nor myself, will live to see another Territory 
organized by this Government to govern our 
fellow-citizeiis, equal to you and to me, in the 
Territories of this Union. The vote in this 
House to-day has shown that the people are 
tired of intervention, and of all the quarrels 
that hang upon it. There is no end to those 
quarrels ; fur so long as there are two views in 
this country concerning freedom and slavery, 
so long, whatever piirty is in power, there will 
be quarrels concerning Executive appointments 
for the Territories; and not only concerning 
those, but concerning every act" which those 
executive officers may do in the Territories. 
There will not only be quarrels here in Con- 
gress, and quarrels in all of the States, but 
there will be quarrels among the people of the 
Territories themselves; for, sir, they enlist 
under party standards on the one side and the 
other, and no party, by any possibility, can 
ever attempt to do anything that the other 
party cannot, will not, censure and condemn. 
There will be these constant partisan quarrels 
in the Territories, and tliey, with various re- 
ports of crimes, ot murder and robbery and 
arson, committed by Executive officials, or at 
their instigation, will be brought to the notice 
of this Huuse, aud parties here will range them- 
selves upon the one side and upon the other, 
and we will have bitter, burning animosities, 
and neyer-ending disputes about this matter of 
non-resident jurisdiction. 

This is a kind of government in no way con- 
sonant or consistent with our institutions. It 
never had any business under the stars and 
stripes. Now, sir, thank Heaven, it is ended. 
It has gone, once and forever, and we are no 
more tu know it. Whatever we may annex 
hereafter, I say, let it be annexed as a sovereign- 
ty, and not as a dependency. We have bad 
enough of this history of dependencies. Let 
us have no more of it. I appeal to honest men 
in all parts of the House — men who love the 
country more than they love prejudice, men 
who favor the institutions of the country more 
than they favor party — now, once and for all, to 
settle this policy. 

Sir, it was said by my colleague, with a sneer, 
that I had joined the Democratic party today 
in my vote. 1 say, that not only the Democrati 
parly, but the American party, so far as 
know, without an exception, and many of th ' 
gentlemen who act with me in the Republica 
party, voted to lay these bills upon the table 
I tell you that, so far from being denounced fo 
our action by the people, we shall be applaud- 
ed, and the country will thank us, of whatever 
party, for having taken this perplexing ques- 
tion out of the halls of Congress. From this 
time we will enjoy the luxury of attending to 
the legitimate business of legislation. 

I move that the bill be laid upon the table. 

The question was taken on Mr. Tuayer's 
motion to lay the bill on the table, and it was 
agreed to. 



